Just a Word of Advice... (3 views) Subscribe   
  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/3/2001 10:43 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (1 of 30)  
 
  54.1  
 
My name is Adrasteia Myrhaven, and I have been a practicing Witch for over a decade. I have argued the case against misrepresentation for years, and as such I feel I might be able to help you. I can understand that you feel it is nescessary to warn us pagans of the eternal fate you believe we're due. I was once Christian myself. However, there are certain things you do here that will destroy any hope you might have for reaching a Witch for Jesus. 
Here are a few points that may be helpful: 
1)Accuracy - This is very important. When you use references that are famous among Pagans as completely false anti-Pagan slander, such as, say anything ever written by Jack T. Chick, you lose us completely. Try to have some idea what we actually believe before you tell us it's evil. 
2) Biblical References - Deuteronomy 18, for instance, means little to someone who doesn't believe in your Bible. If I were you, I'd start with the 'Good News', especially the Gospel of John. 
3) Equating Witches with Satanists: This is another sure-fire turn-off. Witches don't believe in Satan on the whole, let alone worship him. We consider Satan to be a Christian construct. On a related note, calling the Goddess many of us worship a 'filthy demon' isn't gonna bring any of us to your God. The reaction will be the opposite. 
These are just a few observances of someone whose seen this before. If your message is going to reach anyone, they have to listen, and they won't listen if you sound like a crazed witch-hating inquisitor. 
I hope this helps.


Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    6/4/2001 9:25 am  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (2 of 30)  
 
  54.2 in reply to 54.1  
 
So Mote it Be ...and thank you for your input...No one else has made any inroad at all with making David understand that we are really very kind and decent people...If you get the chance please come to Seekers of Olde Knowledge..you will be warmly welcomed...BB...Medicine Song

 
For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


   
 
  
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  From:  Will (xv1100a)   6/10/2001 12:23 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (3 of 30)  
 
  54.3 in reply to 54.1  
 
So, which words WILL get a person to turn away from their Religion & embrace another? :-) 
Personally, I've always liked the elitist attitude that all other Gods are just YHVH's runaway slaves... Brings one's beliefs straight to the open, don't you think?


Freedom- the state of being without restraint. 
"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
- Benjamin Franklin

Will 

First Officer
Southern Cruisers Riding Club
SunCoast Chapter 

Southern

Pride 
 
  
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/11/2001 1:57 am  
To:  Will (xv1100a)   (4 of 30)  
 
  54.4 in reply to 54.3  
 
I'm not sure what works, to be truthful. The only thing I've seen is a slow and steady 'witness by example', what a Christian friend calls 'loving people to Christ'. 
As for the elitist atitude you speak of here, hey, it shows us more respect than most... :)

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/12/2001 2:09 am  
To:  Will (xv1100a)   (5 of 30)  
 
  54.5 in reply to 54.3  
 
A friend of mine once proposed a very intresting concept to me. She said that there was only one real God but, knowing humanity like he/she/it does, knew that presenting himself in one big way wouldn't work because of how cultures clash. Easterners think differently than Westeners who think differently from the peoples in the Americas, etc... God decided to make it easy on us by just giving everyone their own version and beliefs, perhaps as some grand universal joke or perhaps trying to give all the same chance at enlightenment. 
Either way, in my opinion, if God is that powerful (which I believe him to be although I don't it God) then, as a mere human, I have no right to even say his name. Hence why I worship no God and take responsibility for my actions. The true Zen of the Left-Hand path.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
"Dear God, please smite Aliester Crowley for being such a pig."
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 9:44 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (6 of 30)  
 
  54.6 in reply to 54.5  
 
God Did make it easy for us. Instead of many confusing conflicting paths to God there is Only One way to God. The Cross of Jesus. 
One God! One Way! The Christian Way! 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/12/2001 3:34 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (7 of 30)  
 
  54.7 in reply to 54.6  
 
If God did that, then why isn't the whole world Christian?


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/12/2001 8:48 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (8 of 30)  
 
  54.8 in reply to 54.7  
 
Great. No he's gonna go on a whole spiel about how Satan has corrupted the world blah blah blah... Jebus Cripes! Do you think Satan really cares about us? There are billions of worlds out there, most likely with more souls than ours. We may be very small in comparison to the universe.

W.W.I.D 
What would I do?
 
  
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  From:  Will (xv1100a)   6/13/2001 2:48 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (9 of 30)  
 
  54.9 in reply to 54.4  
 
I take it that it hasn't worked you two Ladies yet... ;-) 
Might drop by for a firefight sometime, if you 'see' Loki, tell him his one handed Biker friend in the South says "hi"...


Freedom- the state of being without restraint. 
"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
- Benjamin Franklin

Will 

First Officer
Southern Cruisers Riding Club
SunCoast Chapter 

Southern

Pride 
 
  
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  From:  Will (xv1100a)   6/13/2001 2:50 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (10 of 30)  
 
  54.10 in reply to 54.5  
 
IMO, saying there is one god is like saying there is only one man...

Freedom- the state of being without restraint. 
"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
- Benjamin Franklin

Will 

First Officer
Southern Cruisers Riding Club
SunCoast Chapter 

Southern

Pride 
 
  
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  From:  Will (xv1100a)   6/13/2001 2:51 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (11 of 30)  
 
  54.11 in reply to 54.6  
 
But which 'brand' of 'Christianity'?

Freedom- the state of being without restraint. 
"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
- Benjamin Franklin

Will 

First Officer
Southern Cruisers Riding Club
SunCoast Chapter 

Southern

Pride 
 
  
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  From:  Will (xv1100a)   6/13/2001 2:51 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (12 of 30)  
 
  54.12 in reply to 54.7  
 
The early Church wasn't bloodthirsty enough...

Freedom- the state of being without restraint. 
"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
- Benjamin Franklin

Will 

First Officer
Southern Cruisers Riding Club
SunCoast Chapter 

Southern

Pride 
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/13/2001 4:06 pm  
To:  Will (xv1100a)   (13 of 30)  
 
  54.13 in reply to 54.12  
 
I completely agree. For there to be just one "God" is a little silly since a lot of things in the world work on step functions. Realistically, you could have some minor Gods who are ruled by some major Gods who are then ruled by a bigger thing in the sky, etc, etc... 
Either way, its impossible for the human mind to grasp. 

And, unfortunately enough, you are correct in your statement on the Christian church. They've killed more people (both infidel and Christian) than any other religion on the planet. Ironically enough, more Christians killed Christians than Christians killed others during the Crusades. 

So much for Jesus's teachings of peace and love, huh?


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/13/2001 4:10 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (14 of 30)  
 
  54.14 in reply to 54.8  
 
Jesus supposidly gave all Angels human problems like, emotion, free will, etc. Since all Demons (including the Light Bringer himself) were once Angels, then technically they'd be tempted the same way we are. If I were Satan, I'd be out robbing banks, killing people I don't like and generally running amock. Humans wouldn't be worth my time. And don't forget, Satan was cast out for his pride. If he's got such a big ego, then wouldn't he be more concerned with proving himself in a better way than the mere manipulation of humans?


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  M_DAuvergne   6/15/2001 7:52 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (15 of 30)  
 
  54.15 in reply to 54.14  
 
OOhh...good argument! 
Also, a freind of mine (she is a leader of my group of freinds that I've mentioned in other boards) said that god is whatever we beleive it to be in our version of the universe that we perceive, and that whatever we believe is true to us, as long as we truly perceive it as such. This god that christians worship essentially exists as a thought from created by the belief of many different people, although it is different for all people. I, through observation, think that all beings have the ability to become gods, that is what our soul is destined to do...provided it retains consiousness. Note I said "think", not "believe", because people fight wars over beliefs, i.e. the crusades, but if everone has their own personalized view of the universe, and has constantly changing ideas about it, then there isn't much to fight over, is there?

Je te remercie! 

~M. D'Auvergne
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/15/2001 10:09 pm  
To:  M_DAuvergne   (16 of 30)  
 
  54.16 in reply to 54.15  
 
Yeah, good idea not involving your friend on this board. You'll be hunted down like a wolf in the streets. ;)

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do?  
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/16/2001 1:21 am  
To:  M_DAuvergne   (17 of 30)  
 
  54.17 in reply to 54.15  
 
I knew a lady once who used to advise people in religion. She wouldn't press any particular religion on those who came to her (although she was Christian herself) but rather try to advise them on a spiratuality. Most people would come to her with religious conflicts like, "I'm a Catholic and my fieance is a Jew" or, "I've been Christian all my life and now I'm having my doubts." 
First off, the only way you'd know this lady was a Christian was if you asked her. If you asked, she'd tell, but otherwise you had no way of knowing where she stood on the whole issue. Many times she would get young adults in her office who were confused and looking for answers. Often, she would give them pamphlets on various religions or set them up with some figurehead like a Priest, Rabbi, Krishna Monk, etc, to discuss the issues of certian religions. Some of her "patients" were already religious and some were not. The biggest fear amongst all of was, however, the consequences of choosing the "wrong religion". After all, being a member of an organized religion automatically makes you someone elses enemy and even possibly an enemy of God. Most individuals didn't care about other people hating them as much as they cared about God's personal opinion. But despite this and the differences of all these people, the woman would always tell them the same thing: 

(This is a REALLY rough quote from a conversation I had with her once. Its been awhile but it made a lot of sense both then and now.) 

"God, no matter what his or her or its name is, is all powerful. There might not even be a God in this universe or perhaps there is a God but he is a God that doesn't care. Nobody knows for sure. But if there is then he is the maker of all you see, hear, touch, taste and smell. 

If God is truly powerful enough to mold the cosmos out of nothing then he really doesn't need or demand worship. He is far beyond that or anything else our minds could comprehend. If he is real then we were put here for a reason which no one can understand. He gave us freedom of though that he expects us to exercise, living our lives as we will, with or without him, for the good or for the bad. He put evil in the world to make us strive to raise ourselves above the animals, not to punish us. This is why evil is based on prespective. Not worshiping or believeing in him is not evil. God wants you to believe in what you feel and what you know or else he wouldn't have given us intelligence or emotion. The belief either way, in itself, in neither good nor bad. It just is. 

But, if he does exist, he sees and hears everything in the world so that all the praise from all the people, no matter what religion, eventually meet his ears. It doesn't matter if you call him Buddah, Allah, the Christian God, or whatever. He has many names but all refer to the suprime being and the ultimate enlightenment. Follow the belief you feel comfortable with, be a good person to your fellow man and live a joyful, full life. Be happy with yourself in your relationship with him if you choose to have one at all. There might not be an afterlife planned for us and the concept of God might just be part of the human imagination. However, if he is more than just a figment, I do believe that he would wish for you to use all the wonderful gifts and talents which he gave us to their fullest extent. If he doesn't exist, then you loose nothing by still striving to be a better human through whatever means you choose to follow." 

(That was very long. Sorry for that. I wanted to make sure I had everything. I had bits and pieces of this typed in various places on my computer.) 

Shouldn't the belief in God (the Goddess, the One, the Creator, the Big Thing in the Sky, etc.) no matter what name it goes by, no matter what form he/she comes in, bring you peace of mind?


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/16/2001 6:42 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (18 of 30)  
 
  54.18 in reply to 54.17  
 
John 16:33 These things I (Jesus) have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have Peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I (Jesus) have overcome the world.
God speaks best for Himself and that is in the Bible.

I will Always Try to Preach the Truth of the Resurrection of Jesus; of His Judgment to come; and of the Love of the One and Only True Living God Jesus!!!

True peace of Mind is Submitting your life to Jesus.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/16/2001 10:48 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (19 of 30)  
 
  54.19 in reply to 54.18  
 
Let me tell you a story... 
A Pagan dies and ends up at the Pearly Gates quite suprised. Stunned, the man asks the warn, old soul behind the big book in front of him, "St. Peter? Is that you? Was I truly wrong in my beliefs all these years?" 

St. Peter smiles at the newcomer before bowing his head to reference the large tome before him, "Yes, you now stand at the gates of Heaven. Lets see here.." and finally, coming to the man's name, "Mike Walker, is it? It looks like you've been a pretty good person you whole mortal life. You've never harmed another intentionally and you've helped your fellow men when possible. We've got a place for you," St. Peter finished with a friendly grin as he gestured toward the large, white gate, "Follow me, Mike." 

Mike Walker, the Pagan, was almost too stunned for words, "Um... Sir? How did I get in if I wasn't Christian?" 

With a joyful laugh, St. Peter explained, "God doesn't care what you do as long as you're a good person and didn't do anything too obnoxious. He understands that not everyone can worship him under his Christian name." 

Following St. Peter closly in step and not knowing to expect, Mike tagged along observing all around him. The light white of the background suddenly faded into a gray mist. The mist soon cleared, revealing a beautiful, lush green forest filled with casually dressed people dancing, drinking, playing music and making merry. As the picture became clearer, some of the participants in this joyous event were long departed fellow Pagans and Friends. 

"Here you go, Mike. This is your stop," St. Peter said as he turned to leave Peter to his people. 

Confounded by what he saw, Mike just had to ask, "Sir, I don't get it. I though heaven was only for Christians. I thought the Christian heaven would be all clouds and eating dinner at the table of God and stuff. Whats all this?" 

Smiling in understand, St. Peter explained, "My dear boy, every religion has their own concept of paradise. For the Christians, they eat at the table of God for that is what they wanted in the afterlife and, so, that is how the almighty has rewarded them. Muslims sit in the garden of Allah. What is here before you is your paradigm's paradise. We have pleanty of room up here so we can pretty much accomidate everyone." 

Nodding in understanding, Mike thanked St. Peter and headed towards his friends and family to join them in their celebration. After stepping into the forest, he was soon distracted by an odd sight far in the distance. Close to the horizon, the woodlands ended into barren wasteland. Mike could faintly make out some figures in this distant desert, yelling and screaming all types of obsenities at the happy Pagans who couldn't seem to hear them. 

Catching St. Peter before he vanished to return to his duties at the gates, Mike had one last question, "Sir, if all those people are happy in the forest, drinking and feasting and singing, then why don't those other people in the far desert come and join us in our happiness? Who are they?" 

Turning around and placing a hand on Mike's shoulder, St. Peter sighed as he answered yet another question, "Son, those people out there in the wasteland are Christian Fundmentalists. That is their hell." 

Mike was confused yet again, "If they're Christian Fundmentalists then shouldn't they be in Heaven for serving God?" 

"Well" St. Peter continued, "They spent so much time concentraiting on Christianity that they forgot what was important in the big picture of life. You see, God can forgive for a lot of sins. However, God still doesn't like to be told how he thinks and feels."


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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   From:  Will (xv1100a)   6/17/2001 7:41 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (20 of 30)  
 
  54.20 in reply to 54.19  
 
Loved the story. Except the end could just as well have been- 
"Those are Christian Fundmentalists, that is they're 'Heaven', since it is what they enjoyed doing so much in life..." 
Similarly, any in 'Hell' would be there because that is where they thought they should be...


Freedom- the state of being without restraint. 
"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
- Benjamin Franklin

Will 

First Officer
Southern Cruisers Riding Club
SunCoast Chapter 

Southern

Pride 
 
  
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2001 1:29 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (21 of 30)  
 
  54.21 in reply to 54.19  
 
This corny joke is so old and told about every denomination and belief.
If you believed this joke then truly the joke would be on you.

But this is what Peter did say!

Acts 4:11 Neither is there Salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

There is no Salvation in any other person. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. Jesus died for us and Jesus resurrected to Life for us No one else Has done what Jesus has accomplished and no one else is a Savior.

1 Timothy 3:16 .. God was manifest in the flesh,






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/17/2001 3:30 pm  
To:  Will (xv1100a)   (22 of 30)  
 
  54.22 in reply to 54.20  
 
Its just an old joke that I saw on a bullitin board at the Univesity some time back. I remember it, however, because it states one very philosophical idea; No matter what we believe and what we know we still don't have a clue as to what will happen when we're dead. 
David, on the other hand, seems to know everything.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/17/2001 3:31 pm  
To:  Will (xv1100a)   (23 of 30)  
 
  54.23 in reply to 54.20  
 
The whole story only really states one thing that I personally like; 
No matter what we know or believe, we can still never know for sure what happens after death until we're already dead.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/17/2001 3:37 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (24 of 30)  
 
  54.24 in reply to 54.21  
 
I do so love how you contradict yourself by first saying that God is merciful and then telling everyone how they're going to fry in Hell because God gets mad if you don't worship him. 
If God and Jesus were one in the same, rather than individual parts of a trinity, then why is God a mean, vengful being while Jesus was only kind and loving? 

You seem to quote Old Testament a lot while incorperating New Testament without any care to the fact that God suddenly changes his attitude after the birth of Jesus. 

You also take many quotes out of context.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
"Back in the day if you talked to God you were a savior. Talk to God today, however, and you're mentally ill."
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2001 6:55 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (25 of 30)  
 
  54.25 in reply to 54.23  
 
Christians know what happens after death because we Worship Jesus who was Killed and then Resurrected from Death.
Revelation 1:18 I (Jesus) Am He that Liveth, and was Dead; and, behold, I AM Alive Forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and death.

God is the God of both the Old and New Testaments:
Old Testament:
Exodus 34:5,6 And the LORD passed by before him (Moses), and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the Guilty;

New Testament:
Acts 12:21-24 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. But the word of God grew and multiplied.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/18/2001 2:49 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (26 of 30)  
 
  54.26 in reply to 54.25  
 
Mankind has been theorizing about life after death for almost 7000 years. You're guess is only one in probably an infinate number of guesses. The only way you could know for sure was if you were dead. Have you been dead yet? Judging by how quickly you respond to your posts, I doubt that you're amongst the deceased, let alone in rigor mortis. 


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  Will (xv1100a)   6/18/2001 4:58 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (27 of 30)  
 
  54.27 in reply to 54.22  
 
**David, on the other hand, seems to know everything.** 
Such is the nature of unquestioning Faith. Sometimes, I envy it...


Freedom- the state of being without restraint. 
"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." 
- Benjamin Franklin

Will 

First Officer
Southern Cruisers Riding Club
SunCoast Chapter 

Southern

Pride 
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/18/2001 5:33 am  
To:  Will (xv1100a)   (28 of 30)  
 
  54.28 in reply to 54.27  
 
Yes, but it is only the madman who doesn't question his sanity.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/18/2001 6:33 am  
To:  ALL   (29 of 30)  
 
  54.29 in reply to 54.28  
 
you know, if God is really so allmight, why does he have to rely on bunch overdramatic, overly stuborn bunch of bible-citing fundies to spread his word...... 
By the way Jesus/god: 

- slept with his own mother. 
- was a schizo, as he kept talking to himself. ("Father(God) forgive them, for they know not what they do" -or, since fundies like to use totally incorrect archaic English:- Father Forgiveth them, forwell they knoweth not what theyest do-eth") 
- broke nearly every law he himself ever made. 
- was/is a hypocrite
 
  
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   From:  M_DAuvergne   6/23/2001 7:45 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (30 of 30)  
 
  54.30 in reply to 54.25  
 
You know, David, your arguments become weaker and weaker...if you knew anything at all about writing an argument, if you pull up too much from a single source (cough cough..the bible) people will think you are just a lazy bum who won't research other venues of information. I think the reason you keep spewing out the bible is because you can't think for yourself. Why can't you think logically? Your "wrap your logic hat around this" didn't make any sense at all! Why, you ask? Because you didn't explain it to me at all. You didn't back any of it up and when I asked you to you just 
~Coronus D'Auvergne 



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Edited 6/23/2001 12:21:56 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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